Voucher Arguments Heat Up with Live Debate
None by KCPW
(KCPW News) The passion - and rhetoric - over school vouchers has begun a steady crescendo toward November's statewide referendum. Campaign ads are now in heavy rotation. Billboards will appear soon. And KCPW's Julie Rose reports the live debates are now underway:
Yesterday the sides squared off in the first of what will surely be many debates on Utah's new voucher law. Parental rights advocate and author Richard Eyre argued that only those who fear competition oppose vouchers. Teacher's unions that are campaigning against the voucher program are just protecting their interests, he added.
That got a rise out of his opponent, Carol Spackman Moss who is a retired school teacher and democrat in the Utah House of Representatives. Moss says public schools already compete to offer programs for students with unique needs or interests. Her biggest concern with Utah's new voucher program is that it spends public tax dollars on private schools not held to the same standards as public schools.
Eyre argues vouchers will force the public system to be more creative and efficient. Moss says it will simply drain funds from already-under-funded public schools.
Earlier this year Utah lawmakers passed a program that will offer an average voucher of 25-hundred dollars that students can use toward private school tuition. Voters will be asked to either affirm the new program or overturn it with in November.
Listen to the full debate sponsored by the University of Utah's Hinckley Institute of Politics (58 minutes):
Email to a friendPosted in KCPW Newsroom, Legislative Coverage, Election Coverage, 2007 Legislative Coverage, and Election 2007. Copyright 2008 KCPW
1. Anonymous said:
Referendum 1 actually benefits public schools. Class size reduction is a desirable byproduct. Per pupil spending is far greater than the $2500 dollar credit, and public schools keep the difference. Why are the public schools NOT jumping on the bandwagon?
3. Alison said:
I think a vote for vouchers is a vote for better public schools. With vouchers not only will our class sizes be reduced and our funds be better, there will be a little competition. I can see how this will help us have the push that we need to get rid of some of the teachers who just don't have what it takes to teach. Every parent knows what I'm talking about here. The majority of our school teachers are WONDERFUL but every school has one or two teachers who we dread our children getting. Vouchers may be our solution! Maybe that's why the UEA is against it?
4. Marta said:
Projections say that only 20% of voters will turn out to the polls this November. Opponents of this bill (UEA and NEA) are sure that since many polling places are in schools, the ones who will be casting votes will be public school employees. The NEA has donated $1.5 Million into campaigning against this bill. I am appalled that they are pushing this to a vote. Our representatives wrote the law, believing their constituents wanted it. If supporters of vouchers don’t stand up boldly and let their vote be heard, we will be overrun by the biggest monopoly in the State of Utah, the UEA. I believe a choice in education is overdue! Visit Votefor1.org site and peruse their research pages. You will be impressed at the depth of studies showing choice is good! Then for comparison, visit the opposition’s site at utahnsforpublicschools.org click on the “Truth about Vouchers” and then follow the links to their research. The first link they sight is misquoted – follow the link yourself and read the “Results In Brief” portion.
Thank you for making this debate available on the web. I will be sending many to listen! Thank you!
5. Desirae said:
Wonderful debate! We live in a great country where we are able to decide through casting a vote what is right for our community. Everyone let your voice be heard this Nov 6th and vote for Referendum 1!
6. Stanley said:
It does not matter how much money the school might receive if there is a substandard teacher in front of the class room. This bill does not even require that teachers at eligible private schools have teaching certificates, bachelors degrees, or even background checks. Is that really the type of person that you want teaching your child?
7. Andy Howse said:
As a loving father, I know that with a little effort, I can do my own background check on the teachers in a private school to make my own educated decision on which teacher is better. I want that choice to belong to the parents, as no one loves my children more than I do. If I the parent am a concerned and involved parent, than I will be getting to know the teacher and know from personal experience which teacher is best for my child and I will make that call.
8. Lillian said:
Referendum 1 will give more money to the public schools as well as improve education in public and private schools. There are no losers. Voting FOR the program is a no-brainer.
And to those who pooh-pooh private education as "substandard": Teaching certificates, bachelors degrees, and even background checks do not a good teacher make. Instead they prove that public schools require only "hoops" for substandard educators to jump through for a job, instead of insisting on actual quality in educators.
Parents should choose how their child is educated and not rely on a bloated bureaucracy for "quality".
9. Ellen said:
As a University student nearing graduation to become a Utah school teacher, I am surprised that anyone would think it's ok to have Utah kids taught by unqualified teachers. I am happy to adhere to the requirements and background checks, etc. in order to become a teacher because I believe that educators should be held to a high, unwavering standard of quality. Are there licensed teachers that are not productive that make the rest look bad? Of course there are. There are substandard employees in every profession. But using the 'slugs' in the education system to justify vouchers is not a valid argument. THERE IS ONLY SO MUCH MONEY ALLOCATED TO EDUCATION IN UTAH. So choosing to give vouchers just re-allocates what little money there is, and serves no real purpose. I applaud the licensed, productive, caring school teachers that have such love and concern for their students that they go to work and prove daily that they can do MORE WITH LESS than any other profession in the state. On the high end, some states spend as much as $11,000 per student per year and our Utah teachers do so with $2500. I made a conscious choice to become a teacher, and look forward to helping mold the minds of the future leaders of our state and country. I am only sorry that there is unnecessary bureaucracy to muddle this process.
10. Sue said:
I've dealt with public schools trying to help my special needs son. Since he doesn't fit their mold and learn the way they want to teach, he kept falling futher behind. I was pushed aside by teachers and principals when I requested testing and extra services, and was suggested medication instead. I made the choice to homeschool, and he is THRIVING! Someone that is more concerned about the welfare and success of my son than ensuring he can sit in a chair for hours on end would be a godsend - teaching certificate, college degree, background check, or not.
11. Connie said:
First may I say, the per pupil spending in Utah is $7500.00, not $2500.00. The lesser amount is an approximation for Voucher Issuance, hence the remaining amount is mitigation money for the publuc school. Secondly, choosing Vouchers is NOT a diversion of public education funds. This is grossly misworded. Public education will not lose any of their current funding, in fact will continue to receive money for those they are not teaching. The Utah Legislative Session had a unique opportunity to spend a surplus this year. Why is it then that Legislators chose not to send more money to the school districts? It is because the huge amounts of money that was deposited toward the public school system (over a 5 year period)went to lowering classroom numbers and to gifted and talented. How do you think they did? Not one single district reported their accountabililty and proved they spent the allocation accordingly. It would be foolish for the Legislators to actually keep throwing more funds toward non-producing education. Unfortunately, those who are against this referendum are self serving and naive.
Teachers are crucial. The learning and greatness of individual children are even more crucial. This referendum does give every child their own voice and serves as money well spent.
My advice to everyone is to actually do your homework. Research the facts and you will find yourself a conscious voter!
12. Jared said:
I am not a member of UEA, I am a public school teacher. This voucher program is such a mistake. THIS program is not one that will help public education. Anyone who has spent any time with public education should recognize how flawed the rationale for this program is. When enrollment drops, classes are cut, and teachers are let go. I came to this website with an open mind to see if maybe I was missing something. The bottom line, this program costs more than it could ever save and will cost us even more outstanding teachers who will go to other states where crazy laws like this don't exist.
13. Connie said:
I would like to respond to Jared's remark. You came looking for real information.
The only thing I understand about your post is that teachers will vote against the referendum because their jobs may be in jeopardy. What about the students themselves? Where is the regard for what is best for them?
Here is my real situation:
I couldn't get the help for my child in a regular public school. I tried for years. He didn't fit the standardized method of teaching. I was told time after time that he just needed to buck up. Fortunately, we had a few fantastic teachers. I will always be grateful to them. As my child grew to be older, the system completely ignored him as an individual and I was actually told that his needs could not be addressed. There were simply too many other things to worry about. I got this same treatment from many differnet sources. At first I tried hard to work with the system. Then my son became depressed and I had to do something. I found in my search for help that just a different learning method was all he needed. The local school disctrict could not provide this for him because it didn't fit the approved teaching method. I continued to search and found that some charter, private and homeschools would allow him to get more one on one.
If you really have an open mind, then realize that the public schools cannot accommodate every type of student. Some kids just need something different. And I am not just talking troubled kids either. You can admit that not everyone fits the same mold, hopefully.
I understand that jobs might be at risk, but if you are a really great teacher (in any educational place), your job will not be in harms way. One more thing, THIS program does benefit the public education system. There are many ways it positively impacts both sides. I am not saying that this referendum is totally free from its faults. But I hope it comes out of the gates and gets a chance to prove itself.
I have spent a lot of time in the public education current and I recognize the need for some other options.
The only thing teachers and the opposition has manifested is that they are worried about their jobs and they want this money for themselves. I have yet to read anything that proves otherwise. The bottom line is that this should be about helping individual children, not to secure a few jobs.
My son is doing much better in his new educational environment. He is happier and is getting a chance to learn everyday, in his very individual way.
I hope others, like you, will look at this with an open mind. Good luck to you in your research!
14. Marta Harr said:
Jared,I wonder (with Rep. David Clark) why teachers don't see this as an opportunity. An opportunity to open a Private School and show the quality of your teaching! If you are a good teacher, students will flock to your classroom! See this as an opportunity to thrive in a system that is not laden with the burdens of government! It works in Higher Ed. Why won't it work in K-12 as well?
Take a moment, and visit the Utah PTA site (http://www.utahpta.org/index.htm). Their motto at the top of the page is "every child. one voice." I can't even fathom that concept. How can they believe that every child can be represented by one voice? They simply CAN'T!!!!! That is ridiculous on any level - a choir can't sing one part, the woods would be very silent if only one type of bird sang, my children are EACH different! I don't want a robot child who has one voice - the same as the neighbor boy's! Please NO! What is it they are trying to push? Educators and the PTA seem to think they need to replace parents in the home. PTA members believe they need to provide children with breakfast, a ride to school, and a free lunch. I thought we were talking about education! What happened to teaching Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic?
John D Rockefeller Jnr. Wrote:
I Believe
I believe in the supreme worth of the individual and in his right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.I believe that every right implies a responsibility; every opportunity, an obligation; every possession, a duty I believe that the law was made for man and not man for the law; that government is the servant of the people and not their master.I believe in the Dignity of labour, whether with head or hand; that the world owes no man a liking but that it owes every man an opportunity to make a living.I believe that thrift is essential to well ordered living and that economy is a prime requisite of a sound financial structure, whether in government, business or personal affairs.I believe that truth and justice are fundamental to an enduring social order.I believe in the sacredness of a promise, that a mans word should be as good as his bond; that character not wealth or power or position - is of supreme worth.I believe that the rendering of useful service is the common duty of mankind and that only in the purifying fire of sacrifice is the dross of selfishness consumed and the greatness of the human soul set free.I believe in an all-wise and all-loving God, named by whatever name, and that the individuals highest fulfillment, greatest happiness, and widest usefulness are to be found in living in harmony with His Will.I believe that love is the greatest thing in the world; that it alone can overcome hate; that right can and will triumph over might.
John D Rockefeller Jnr.
Prayer inscribed in the Rockefeller Centre, New York
15. Amanda G. said:
I haven't researched this issue as much as others. However, I feel very strongly that when any entity of the government (in this case, public schools) are trying to maintain complete control over the masses, we have a major problem and should have every right for other alternatives that are a better fit for ourselves and our children.
Each child is so individual and unique, how do they possibly think they can provide a superb education to them all, especially with over crowded classes? Having less children in the schools overall would provide more attention to the ones that are left there...and private schools naturally are smaller, providing a better ratio of students to teachers.
I know there are awesome teachers out there who really do care for their students. It is the system itself that is in need of a major overhaul. Although my oldest child had great teachers and did well in her 4 years in the public school system (both academically and socially), her love of learning was completely gone by the end of 3rd grade. How sad is that for an 8 yr old to feel that way? So, we've been homeschooling for just over 3 years now. It is my belief that the methodologies and "teaching to the test" is what did that to her. Her individual interests, abilities and needs weren't the priority, as the public schools can't possibly cater to each student as an individual.
I'm voting for Referendum 1.
16. Amanda G. said:
I would also like to ask...
How does this affect students who are currently homeschooled? If they choose to attend a private school and Referendum 1 passes, are they also allowed to partake of the voucher program since they aren't currently enrolled in a Utah public school?
I know that other states, such as Alaska, actually give money to homeschool families to provide for educational resources and supplies. These states do have parents meeting certain criterion to receive these funds. I wonder if any such Referendum will ever come to pass in Utah?
17. Connie said:
Amanda,
Homeschooled students will not be able to participate in the voucher program at this point. Oddly, the verbage of the referendum states that a child who is currently enrolled in public education can apply for a voucher. Of course, the remainder of the money goes to the public school that the child checks out of (for a term of up to 5 years). I believe this gives those who have not made the bold leap into making a new educational choice the opportunity to do so.
It would be nice if every child were treated equally, no matter where their education comes from. Hope for the future!
18. m gard said:
Freedom is choice!!!
schools are to help students, not give jobs, let the students try to get what is best for them individually.
those who go to private schools pay taxes as well(and if its only/would be the "wealthy" as some say, well they pay more taxes then the rest) so let them have something.
also some say there is no "accountability" in private schools, and well there is little goverment mandated(so there is flexability), but private schools are very accountable to the parents who send childrent to them. Its simple they do bad parents take kids out, kids taken out no money and school closes. Now thats accountability, do what is wanted by parents/students or go out of buisness.
I just graduated from our public schools, but had wanted other opportunities, with a voucher I would have had other choices.
VOTE FOR Referendum 1
19. Sam said:
If you really get into checking the numbers, the amount that will be saved per pupil is actually less than $1,000. About 80% or more of the money for the schools is to run the school. Here is my proof!!!
http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/ut/other/556#financeBased on PHS. If you'll also notice, the amount per child is much lower than the 7 Oreo cookies.........($7500 Where did that come from?)
The school still has to run. If you take the kid out of the class room, they don't save all of the money. They save about 20% of the "Other expenditures". So I don't think the numbers add up at all.
I also believe that schools get funding on the basis of attendance. Am I wrong? How is the public school going to receive money for kids that aren't there? If they are going to receive money for the kids even though they aren't there, how long is it going to be available? Until someone decides to stop funding for people that aren't involved???? Then the public schools are doomed.
Why should the public tax dollars go to a private school? Shouldn't it be used for the "public"? I don't think that it is fair to give money to a single family for having a kid in private school. What if Grandma and Grandpa are paying for it? Should we split the voucher between them? What about people that don't have kids? What if they want their tax dollars to go to private schooling? Don't we have a responsibility to educate the kids in our community. Isn't that a big part of what taxes are all about?
They WILL cut money to the public schools if there aren't kids there to be funding. (They say there is no money being taken from public schools.) I would bet my voucher that someone will come in and say, "Why are we giving money for kids that aren't there?" Within 5 years. It doesn't make any kind of business sense to pay for something that doesn't exist!!!
Please educate me if I am wrong. (I went to public schools....... after all....)
Sam
20. Connie - so sorry for the abrupt manner about to unfold! said:
I could just debate the post by Sam with one concept. If SOOOOO many kids are dropping like flies to get out of public education and run to the nearest private school - than that alone should be a huge indicator that something is currently wrong with the system!
But my intellectual side gets the best of me and I can see that I could go on and on, so here goes:
Oh Sam, I can see that you are confusing your research. I checked into your website listed in your post. Your information is based off of a Charter School. Even though a Charter School is publically funded, the amount of money they actually get is different than that of a mainstream-district run-public ed school (for lack of a better term). Most Charter schools actually only get around 75% of the per pupil rate. The other 25% goes to the local school district, again for children they are not keeping track of. Unless the Charter was given by the local school district instead of the state, in which case, the district actually gets even more money for kids they are not keeping track of. Also, Charter Schools reside in privately owned buildings on privately owned lands and are subsidized by grants and the good graces of cash contributions/parents, etc.
The $7500.00 amount comes directly from the Utah State Legislation. It is the amount allocated to students who attend public schools - and only those who attend public schools. Charter Schools only get their money (remember - only 75%) based on enrollment, which is usually capped (yeah - lower class sizes). Sure, public schools only get money for kids that are attending their school, but the base is much wider. And guess what? They don't have a cap on their enrollment. They can continue to receive funds for all of the kids that live in their boundary. And this is Utah we are talking about; Lots of families, lots of kids.
So now that you realize that Charter Schools are up and running, because your website is proof, than you can dig a little deeper and find out that money is going to public schools for kids that aren't there! Why would private schools be any different? They won't! The public schools are only doomed if they lose every child, which isn't going to happen.
After this post, I will add an article that addresses your public tax dollar question. But, not yet. I am not done explaining this.
VOUCHER MONEY DOES NOT GO TO INDIVIDUALS! Not to parents, not to grandparents subsidizing private schooling, not to you or me. It goes to the Private School itself that is providing the education to the child. There are very stiff rules about even applying for the voucher. It is not just free money to someone who wants it. Funny, it shouldn't be free money to public ed either.
I am glad for you Sam. I am glad that your education was wonderful and you feel like you got something out of it. Not every student gets that. That's really the main issue at hand.
You are right about one thing, though. It doesn't make any kind of business sense to pay for something that doesn't exist - and right now that is a great education in a public school!
So, with that being said like vomit all over the floor, you may want to rethink your last statement Sam.
21. Connie (this is the article that addresses tax dollars) said:
Weighing in on the Utah Voucher ProgramPosted by Connor on September 28th, 2007 Perhaps the most divisive political topic in Utah over the past few months has been the issue of state-sponsored educational vouchers. Lawmakers, organizations, reporters, and bloggers have all been sounding off in an attempt to sway voters to their side. In the commotion, facts have been glossed over, propaganda has been hyped up, money has been thrown at advertising both sides, and people on both sides have dug in their heels for the upcoming battle at the ballot in November.But which side is right? Should Utahns pass the voucher bill this fall or not?The basic facts of the voucher program are as follows:· Under this program, Utah families would receive anywhere from $500 to $3,000 per year per child to subsidize private school tuition. The amount depends on the family's income. · For each child who leaves the public school system, the public school that child would normally attend would still receive funds ("mitigation money") for that child for the next five years (unless he/she graduates or returns to public school). · Private schools wishing to accept voucher money must meet certain requirements established by state law and apply to the Utah State Office of Education for eligibility. The basic arguments are as follows:· For: Those favoring the vouchers claim that the voucher program would allow parents to have more choice in education, using the money to help fund tuition for their children in a private school. · Against: Those opposing the vouchers say that they waste state funds, divert money from public schools, and mix state government with private entities through subsidies and oversight. So again, who is right? Surely this isn't just a matter of public opinion; are there principles to be observed in this debacle upon which we may make a correct decision?A moral case for vouchersBack in April there was an opinion piece in the Daily Herald titled "The moral case for vouchers". The premise was that the government has every right to use public funds for private endeavors. The author demonstrated how opponents of the vouchers errantly believe that the public educational system is to have exclusive rights in receiving money for education:That money is committed whether the public purpose is accomplished by public or private means. The only thing that should matter to taxpayers is that the purpose is accomplished.Voucher opponents, though, would have you believe that the state has no obligation to fund anything but a public system. We disagree. There is no case, for example, that private schools have failed to accomplish the public purpose of educating students. If anything, they have proved themselves superior to the public system. The moral case for vouchers exists in the fact that the money ultimately belongs to "We the People". It is, then, immoral for bureaucrats to sponsor one child at the expense of another, or grant funds to one educational entity while denying it to another. Granted, there are many factors involved in determining how and to whom the funds should be allocated, but the simple fact exists that we the taxpayers fund the education of our children. Demanding that one family fund the education of your child while also paying private school tuition for his own is absurd, and accurately reflects the socialist mentality that many have.(end of article)
22. Sam said:
Okay, since your going to answer my questions, I'm going to keep asking.....
Okay, FINE! I've confused my research??? Whatever! You've made more of my point. So, Provo High School is a charter school. They are still a State/public funded school though, right? (I don't know all of the details. I doubt that most of the people that will be voting on this issue know as much as I do. I keep trying to understand how it can be a good idea.) Here is how you've helped prove my point. The money being spent on one student may be $7500. Of that money, now, maybe 8% is actually for that particular student. Or are you throwing out "charter" schools all together? They don't count, or something? I don't know for sure, but I would assume that Provo High School, in the Provo School District, is in fact a "mainstream-district run-public ed school (for lack of a better term). Tell me if you know otherwise. Do we need some kind of reform on how everything is run/funded in the school system? PROBABLY, but that's not the issue.
Then, you say I should dig a little deeper..... I would love too. The problem is that I don't consider to be something that I should have to do. Isn't that why we have elected officials? To look at this kind of thing and decide what is best? I am beginning to wonder how smart the people making the decisions around here are.
Voucher money does not go to individuals........... WHAT? Okay, maybe some actual piece of paper makes it's way from the state tax comm. to a private school office somewhere......... The fact is, the people receiving the voucher, are not spending that amount of money. So, they in theory "GET THE MONEY". How can you see things the way you say you do???????? And, all of that being said...... WHY should a "Private" entity get the public tax money? Sorry, I just think that public money should be spent "publicly". (Okay, now you can rant about how there are so many "special interests" that have funding by state money....... blah blah blah YEAH, things are really messed up. I get that!)
Then you say that the issue at hand is the kids getting a positive education. NO, I think the issue at hand is money. Your article doesn't really address my "public tax dollars" question, either. Mainly because at the end it say, "Demanding that one family fund the education of your child while also paying private school tuition for his own is absurd" is not much of a statement. What about people without kids? They still have to support public education. If you don't want your kid in public schools, FINE! But, YOU STILL HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY AS A CITIZEN OF YOUR COMMUNITY TO EDUCATE THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, I think this is a huge point to be looked at.
If there is any sort of agreement on that last statement. You have to look at the numbers again. How much of "YOUR (the parent of a child)" tax dollars, go to educate your own child? Hmmmmmmm? Kind of gets you wondering, doesn't it? Think of all of the retired, single, or people that don't want or have kids......... They are helping to pay for your child's education, aren't they? So, why do you get to not support the "SYSTEM" (Yeah, maybe it's good or bad) It is the mainstream system though. Shouldn't we try to make the SYSTEM better?
There has been so much money spent on this referendum that could have been much better spent.
Then here's another question......... Where does the voucher money come from? We're going to pay for kids to have a public and a private education........ Where does the extra money come from? Hmmmmmm? Just another thought I've had lately. It is going to be a major tax disaster. We're going to have to raise taxes to pay for it, I would assume. So, now if my child is in the public system........ I GET TO PAY FOR PRIVATE SCHOOL FUNDING??????????????????
I may be wrong, but no one has made it any clearer to me.I'm not mad or upset, I just don't get it?
Sam
23. Connie - again - sorry said:
Sam, now it's good debate. I could stay for hours and go over the details. But I really have gotten away from what I believe this referendum is truly about.
This is about my children and your children having the best possible education that they can receive. Learning and Loving should be in the same sentence. Not too many students are feeling inspired over going to school everyday. Just look at the graduation rate in Utah...and the number of students who go on to higher ed. I really want my children to be excited about everyday and really getting into their subjects. I am speaking from a personal point of view. But, I don't just want it good for my kids - why can't everyone have the opportunity to feel great about school?
I would love nothing more than to see the current system get better and be reformed. Obviously that requires much time and effort. My children don't have years to spend waiting for everything to get better. There are many reasons why the system is failing them, but we have made what we can of it. We have had terrific teachers. We have had terrible teachers. I am here to make sure they end up in a learning environment that they can learn best in. I can't always get that with the current system. I would really love a choice. So here is another opportunity for me to find quality education for their personal learning style.
Do I think that everyone should pay for my point of view? That's really what you are trying to get at, I think. Well, educating children should be a necessity. Funding education should be a necessity. All taxpayers are paying for education whether they have children or not. I think it's good business to invest in our children so they can re-invest in Utah (or the world for that matter) when they are older.
I personally don't plan on taking the voucher and telling everyone "Hey, thanks for your money and your system is crap!” I would consider applying for the help with tuition if I found a superior environment for one/all of my kids. It is a very conscious decision to look at alternative education. I have also found that those who do choose something other than regular public ed are very steadfast at making sure their child is thriving. I am sure there are some exceptions. Just as I am sure there are caring parents involved in public school too.
So to the details you were wondering about. I have asked these same questions. I went to the Utah State Legislative Website and read HB 148. This is the information you are looking for. As with any activity from our legislators, every fiscal year a budget is set forth and money is allocated to different areas. A proposal for the voucher is set forth to be included from the current budgeting process, using current tax dollars (but not money already going to public ed). The elected officials are the ones who came up with this. I believe they are doing really well with our money (remember, we had a surplus in the middle of a recession). You can find a clearer description of the funding by actually going to the source. One thing to note, the kids won’t get money for both public and private schooling. You mentioned that. A voucher just states that a portion of per pupil spending will go towards the private school and the rest will remain in the public school. Private schools are not individuals, unless you are referring to the staff such as administrators and teachers. They are the ones who would get paid from the voucher. It’s pretty tight to run an educational environment with only a portion of what everyone else is getting; there won’t be anything left over. Public ed can’t even get by with the $7500.00. I really can’t make your figures add up. 8%? Around 30% plus/minus of the current per pupil spending will be at the high end of the voucher – the other 70% plus/minus will still be given to the local school. This is in the amendment of HB 148. Unless you are thinking that the agreement to this bill will be compromised, it works out well. The public school gets money for kids they do not have – plain and simple.
For years I was against a voucher. Then my personal situation took a turn and I had to look for a solution for one child, in particular. So I looked and looked for help. The district that I live in could not help my son. What? I have always been a strong supporter of the schools. But I didn't have strong support from them. My focus comes back to my son and the many other children who are tired and depressed and don't want to go out the door everyday. This is an answer for them.
Those who are against the voucher are making this about money or about teachers losing their jobs. If you really want to understand this voucher, besides the financial end of things: Research the classroom ratios, the gifted and talented, the bullying problems, the lack of enthusiasm for school, the amount of children who are medicated during school hours, again the graduation rate, truancy rates, etc, etc. I only ask that you dig deeper because you are asking for information.
This program can be a solution for students who need a choice. Shouldn't the system want what is best for every individual child? I would hope so. Money is well spent when you see a positive return.
Thanks for helping me to define what I feel is right and an opportunity to debate this issue. I am sorry if I came across as...mean or bitter. I know everyone won’t form the same conclusions, but it is wise to get both sides of the issue and be informed.
The best advice I try to give myself is to really look at the facts even though my personal opinions are strong. I have found that this voucher is a really beneficial tool.
I continue to support Referendum 1.
24. Anonymous said:
Public money is spent on private entities all of the time. This should be no different.
VOTE FOR 1
25. Sam said:
Thanks for the information. I will go and read the actual wording and see if I've missed something.
If I was paying to send my child to a private school, and the Government was willing to give me some of that money back, I'd probably like that. (Who wouldn't.) That being said, I don't think this is a good Bill/referendum/whatever you'd call it. As much as I would like to believe that this Referendum was about the kids, I can't! It's about money. (plain and simple) If it were to pass the way that I understand it, it's going to end up hurting the majority of the kids in the public schools.
Basing my numbers on this website.... (It's on the internet. It must be true.......) If there is any better information on spending, I'd like to see it.http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/ut/other/556#finance$5,869 total cost per pupilnot including Instructional 64% Student and Staff support 6% and Administration 10%
LeavesOther expenditures 20%$1,173
$1,173/$7,500=approximately 16% (I assumed that maybe half of that would be saved removing 1 child from the school system. Thus my 8% figure.)
Now of that 16% I'm not sure how much is actually saved by taking 1 kid out of the class. This is what is included in that "other expenditures" category.Operations (utilities, maintenance and security), Food Service, and the salaries of support staff such as bus drivers and cafeteria workers.
None of that money is useful in any way because it still has to be in place. The price per pupil has to increase to offset it. So saying that the money is left for the public schools is not true. So if you give back $500-$3,000 there is no savings, it's more expensive. How does that leave the public schools more money? An already hurting system gets hit again.
As things are, it's all guessing, but I would assume that if classes got smaller, they'd ratio them back up to save money. Doesn't help the kids, does it? Teachers get fired. Doesn't help the teachers, does it?
I think this has to be about the kids, not the parents wallets. (sorry if that is offensive, but that's how I see it.) If this happens it will end up hurting the kids in the public schools. Maybe not in the beginning, but probably sometime in the near future.
I think that there probably should be some major reform of the school system. Maybe to include special programs for certain learning, social, or whatever type of problems a child may have. I don't think that this bill/referendum is the answer though. It's a way to ruin the already in place system even more.
So, I guess maybe it is all about the kids. If this passes it will ruin what they have got in place. Hopefully it doesn't and we can find better ways to fix the problems. Whatever they may be.
Good luck to you with whatever your personal situation is. (the child you have in private school.) I'm sure it isn't easy to deal with that stuff. If I was paying for my child's private school, I'd love to get some help from the government. I just don't believe that this is the answer. I think that there is a bigger picture to be looked at. The rest of the kids, still in public schools. Let's make it about the kids.
Sam
26. Anonymous said:
Sam, the voucher money is like a scholarship program that comes from the General Fund not the Education Fund or the Uniform School Fund. The money will remain the same for public schools.
Here are a few more websites to check into about the voucher and per pupil spending:
http://www.votefor1.com/ (follow the information about how the program works and myths and facts)
http://www.schoolmatters.com/this website does show actual from 2005, but it still does not change the fact that these funds will remain in public education.
27. Sam said:
(4) For each year a school district retains in enrollment transferred scholarship students as provided in this section, the board shall deduct from minimum school program funds distributed to the school district an amount equal to the number of transferred scholarship students retained in enrollment times the average scholarship amount for scholarship students statewide.
Ummmmm? Then what does that say? Cut and pasted from the ref. itself. Sounds to me like the schools just lost some money??????? Where will it be spent? Who knows???? But, my school district just lost some funding right there.
I couldn't find anything about funding on the site you posted..... Did I just miss it?
Sam
2. Brittney Anderson said:
I too have one child out of 4 who has a learning dissability and have watched him struggle over and over wishing I could afford a private school for him. I am low income and I am no dummy!!! I know what my child needs and wether he is progressing or not. Public school is fine for students as long as they fit one mold there is no program in a public school that can help my student with 30 kids in one class. There is not enough time for a teacher to address a child with special needs when there are that many students in the class. And with the teacher shortages they are hiring teachers who aren't really as dedicated as some which makes it that much worse.